JOIN US IN PRAYING for those along the Guadalupe River.
JOIN US IN PRAYING for those along the Guadalupe River.
What does it mean to create something beautiful—not despite our limitations, but because of them? We talk with bestselling author and artist Austin Kleon about creativity as resistance, the tension between process and product, and the courage to show our work. From crushed oyster shells to pink conchas, from ancient nun rhythms to the modern grind, this episode reminds us that creativity is not about abundance—it’s about attention. And it might just save our souls.
Our guest this week, Austin Kleon, is the New York Times bestselling author of Steal Like an Artist, Show Your Work, and Keep Going. Known for his accessible insights into the creative process, he writes a widely followed weekly newsletter and shares his own journey of making art with words and pictures.
Notes
Marcus Goodyear: I never had the 64 count crayon box. Just the modest set of eight, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet, brown, and black. I’d watch the other kids open their crayon castles, four rows of colors like silver and gold and purple mountain’s majesty. And I always felt like their lives just must be more beautiful than mine.
Maybe that’s where it started. This belief that beauty comes not from abundance, but from attention. From limitation even. Creativity isn’t the freedom of infinite colors. It’s the art of working with what you have.
They say creativity means being willing to color outside the lines, and I get that. Rules can become a form of self censorship, but there’s a subversive kind of power in staying between the lines and still importing beauty from the outside. Because I still believe in creativity, not just as an expression, but as resistance, as resourcefulness. And I refuse to believe that beauty requires abundance. I think of poetry, how a sonnet doesn’t trap the poet, it sharpens the poem.
How even a single blue crayon moving in one direction on paper can become the sea. I’m Marcus Goodyear from the H.E.Butt E Foundation. This is The Echoes Podcast. Today, we welcome Austin Kleon, New York Times bestselling author of Steal Like an Artist, Show Your Work, and Keep Going. And we’re gonna talk about creativity as an act of power and belief.
I’m here with my co-host, Camille Hall-Ortega. Austin, welcome.
Camille Hall-Ortega: We’re so glad to have you.
Austin Kleon: Thank you for having me.
Marcus Goodyear: Let’s dive right in. Tell us a little bit about what you do and what creativity looks like for you.
Austin Kleon: Oh my. Well, I usually tell people I, I’m a writer who draws. I make books with pictures and art with words. So I’m kind of a hybrid beast where the verbal and the visual is kind of, you know, they’re interwoven for me. As far as creativity, now that’s it’s a funny word.
I never really thought about it that much until I had a book that said creative on the cover. You know, I’ve always been really interested in art and making art, but you know, as part of my kind of journey as a person who makes things is that I have had to think about that word creativity a lot. I think, you know, for me, it’s just taking what’s in front of you and everybody else and turn it into something new that we haven’t seen before.
Camille Hall-Ortega: So good. One thing that I wondered about is for folks who feel kind of creatively blocked, if you feel like you’re experiencing some sort of creative block or writer’s block or anything like that.
Austin Kleon: Yeah. I think that’s a two fold approach though. I think you have to, the input and the output, you know, you really have to be sure that the ratio is is correct. Like something that, you know, was really interesting to me as a young writer is I discovered that someone like Stephen King will write for three hours in the morning, and then he’ll read all afternoon.
That was really shocking to me as a young writer is that someone with that prodigious of an output would actually spend a good deal of his day on the couch reading. But if you think about it, three hours is about that’s if you’re cranking for three hours and you do that days a year, you got a novel. Especially if you’re someone like King who seems to be able to write with a kind of open throttle, you know.
And so it’s very important, I think, for people to figure out what the ratio is, what their proper ratio is. For me, you know, I really only have about three or four really creative hours in me in the studio. And then the rest of the day needs to be, you know, spent filling up. But so I think it’s twofold.
I think, you know, you need to find inspiration. So, you know, like Julia Cameron says, take yourself on an artist date. I actually think that really the material that most people need to use the most is time. I think time is kind of the primary material for creative work. I think time, space, and materials, I don’t think they’re in that order of hierarchy.
But time is really the thing that the artist, I think, has to work with. And one of the ways I think to get inspired is to put inspiration on the calendar.
Camille Hall-Ortega: Oh, wow.
Austin Kleon: You know, is to, I’m gonna schedule this day, I’m gonna go out, I’m gonna buy some new art supplies, I’m gonna go to the museum, I’m going to watch a movie, I’m gonna do this thing. And then you schedule another time where you’re going to go into the studio and you’re gonna do something with that stuff.
Marcus Goodyear: Yeah, that makes me think of William Wordsworth. He said, “Poetry is emotion recollected in tranquility.” So you have to go out and experience it and then the poetry comes when you recollect on the experience of inspiration that you had.
Austin Kleon: So influence is actually one of the great leaps that creative people can make is they make influence active. You’re actively seeking influence. You’re actively seeking inspiration. So it’s not a passive thing. You’re not just like waiting for the call. You’re showing up at the studio and it’s like there were these there were these nuns once I forget which which none it was. I was reading this article about nuns one time and they said, you know, we don’t pray because we feel like praying. We pray because the bell rings. We pray because the bell rings.
And I always felt like, you know, the the spiritual devotion of of having an art practices. You know, we don’t paint because we feel like it. We paint because it’s time to paint, you know, and whatever inspiration there is is gonna find us working.
Marcus Goodyear: I love the idea of time as a gift, which I think is one of the things I heard you saying. As opposed to time as money, which is something else I sometimes hear. That takes me back to Lewis Hyde and this this idea of viewing what we do as a gift both to ourselves and to others. And most of our listeners probably have not heard The Gift.
So I’m curious if you could just like summarize for you what what does that work mean to you? And then maybe we can hear a little clip of of it.
Austin Kleon: Well, The Gift’s a weird book. I mean, it’s it’s it’s hugely influential on people. It’s one of those books when people read them, it like really gets you if you can get through it. The gift was a very important thing to read as a as a young artist for me because it simply makes the case that there is the world of there is the market economy and there is the gift economy.
You can make art without the economics, but you can’t make art without the gift. If you think of the gift economy and the market economy as two circles and then in the middle is this little sliver of Venn diagram, that’s where a lot of really great art exists. But it’s very tricky once those worlds are great alone, but when you get them together, things get very tricky. And every creative person knows this.
There’s a great, great show about this right now called The Studio that is Seth Rogen show about being a Hollywood Producer.
Marcus Goodyear: Oh, okay.
Austin Kleon: And one of the things that Seth Rogen says is that on the outside, you’re looking at Hollywood and you’re thinking, how do all these crappy movies get made? When you work inside Hollywood, you’re amazed that any good movie gets made because-
Marcus Goodyear: Yes. I’ve heard that too.
Austin Kleon: -it’s a system in which commerce rules the day.
Marcus Goodyear: Yeah. Yeah. We have found an audio clip from Laity Lodge where somebody is also talking about The Gift. And this is Makoto Fujimura. He is a Japanese paint, Japanese American painter and he works in Nihonga, which is a Japanese style of painting that he says is slow art.
And it’s basically made where they crush minerals. They crush natural things and use it as the color. And so if the color gold is on the painting, then it is gold. Like actual gold, crushed gold, crushed oyster shell, crushed mica, things like that. It’s the only painting I’ve ever seen that absolutely is not captured unless you’re looking at it in person.
It’s sort of hard to describe and it’s very very beautiful. And we had the opportunity of bringing him to Laity Lodge in 2009. Laity Lodge is the adult retreat center sponsored by the H.E.Butt Foundation. And he was talking to artists and writers about how he understands the value of art. So here is Makoto Fujimura.
Makoto Fujimura: And I was thinking about this, what good is this? Does a capital istic market system look at what I do and put value on it? And I was reading this book called The Gift by a guy named Lewis Hyde, he’s a poet. One, you know, is, I agree with Hyde here that work of art is a gift. Second, that it needs to be received as a gift. And that in itself is a gift. That transaction that takes place is not commoditized, you know, commercialized, celebrity driven thing that we what we have now come to call contemporary art. There is something intrinsic about the art process that is needed to sustain you and I creating work. Apart from the marketplace, the work of art can exist on its own without the marketplace. But civilization cannot. Without the gift of art, we lose our soul.
Austin Kleon: Another way to think about, you know, what what he’s talking about is process versus product.
Marcus Goodyear: Yes.
Austin Kleon: When we think about art, I mean, lot of people think about art as the finished work. It’s the thing up on the wall. That is the product. But then there’s the process of art. There’s everything that goes into the artist’s life.
There’s the walk they take in the morning. There’s the preparation of the materials. There’s the inspiration. There is the actual work that is done over time to make the thing. And I think that people who really love and understand art know that they can feel that process, whether you really, you know, you can feel what has gone into a real work of art.
And I think we’re in a moment right now where a lot of people only understand the product of art. And I think a lot of the, you know, the chitchat about AI right now,
Camille Hall-Ortega: You’re reading our minds.
Austin Kleon: These these are people who who really believe in the product of art, and they don’t understand the process of art. I mean, the entire world right now is run by people who don’t know anything about art. Pretty much every tech person has no idea what is really I don’t think there’s an art lover in the batch, really. They certainly don’t they’re certainly not interested in in terms of, well, won’t necessarily go there, but I think that’s what people really miss the point with AI work is that there’s no gift there.
There’s no struggle. There’s no limitations, there’s no, it’s just, it’s all about product. Give me this thing.
Camille Hall-Ortega: Yeah. It’s prompting, you know? And I think that people can tell that. So the artist is dealing with a bunch of things. I think a lot of artists right now are really upset. They think that they’re struggling with the technology problem. A lot of what we’re dealing with is an audience problem. You simply don’t have the audience who’s ready to receive.
Marcus Goodyear: If the audience hears poems from ChatGPT and thinks they’re good, that’s because they don’t know how to receive-
Camille Hall-Ortega: There’s all sort of evaluation issue with audience. Right? That they don’t they don’t know what
Austin Kleon: You know, and I’m not trying to be snobby. I’m just saying you have a disappearing writers, for example. There are you know, who reads anymore? The problem isn’t that there’s nothing to say necessarily. The problem or that chat GPT is gonna replace us or anything.
The problem is where is the audience? Where is the audience that is hungry for the human for this kind of work? And so I think part of the artist never wants to think about the audience. You know, they always wanna think about their work and their process and this and that. But part of the great work of, you know, making things in this world is finding people to receive them and finding the right people to receive it.
Camille Hall-Ortega: Austin, you’re reading our minds because we were very, very excited to hear what your thoughts are about AI and creativity. But I’m loving what you’re also saying about product versus process. And I’m actually thinking about the connection between these things. When you spoke about the importance of process and sort of art as doing, not just as product, It made me think of even the art that we have where I am in in our San Antonio office, our sunset office. We have many beautiful paintings, but we have a beautiful painting from an artist.
Well we’ll link her in our show notes. But she did a beautiful painting for us of a pink concha, which for for those that aren’t familiar is a Mexican pastry dessert, essentially.
Austin Kleon: Delicious.
Camille Hall-Ortega: That are they’re very delicious. And she does these very realistic paintings of things like concha, conchas and other things that really represent her culture that also represent culture in San Antonio. And the piece is stunning. But what was even perhaps more stunning was her discussing her process.
And so she spoke about going and buying real conchas from Panaderias and looking at each one and deciding what color pink this concha that she was painting was going to include, and then the process of creating the pinks that were going to be included in the concha that she was going to paint. And it was just mind blowing to hear about the process. And I think what’s important here is that you don’t get that with AI. Not going to happen with AI. Can you just talk about kind of this intersection of product versus process and problems with AI?
Austin Kleon: Well, I wrote a whole book about it. This is what my book, this is what my book, Show Your Work, is about. Yeah. Yeah. Because one of the things that I realized right away is that that book, actually, now that we’re talking about it comes directly out of the tension that Lewis Hyde talks about in the gift is that you have this gift to this process, this thing that you love to do, and you’re trying to make it exist, you’re trying to thrive in this market driven world.
In the old days, when communication was different and the gatekeeping was different and the world was different, you weren’t supposed to ever show anyone your process. That’s how the sausage is made, so to speak.
Camille Hall-Ortega: Yeah.
Austin Kleon: But I really grew up admiring people like, I don’t know, I was you know, my mom used to be a home ec teacher, so I was always really interested in people like Martha Stewart or Bob Ross. These people who sort of like gave away their secrets and kind of demystified the process. And so I was kind of always inspired by that, but I also noticed as a young artist that people were able to build an audience for their work, not just through their own work, but the way they talked about their work. Yes. And so many of the things that artists are told, like, you never show people how the sausage is made.
The work should speak for itself. Mhmm. Someone always speaks for the work. That’s how art kind of works, actually. That’s how that world works.
And so what I was trying to figure out with that book is people would come to me and they most artists hate self promotion. They hate marketing. After Steal Like an Artist came out, people would come up to me and then say, how did you do this? How how did you go from being unknown and not even really having work of your own that was that, you know, to to where you are now?
And I was like, can I write a book about that? And that’s what Show Your Work was about because what I saw was that all artists really care about is their process. What if there was a way that they could share their process while they were working that could build an audience for what they do? And when they had something ready for that audience, that audience would kind of be primed for it. They would be ready to receive it.
Marcus Goodyear: Yeah, this is what you do, right? I mean, is in some way feels like this is your brand.
Austin Kleon: So yeah, I practice what I preach here. Like, yes. Yeah, it comes right out of my experience.
Marcus Goodyear: Right and the way you preach it makes it sound easy. I have tried this. It’s been many years because I essentially retreated and you know, I wasn’t producing the kinds of content you are I don’t want delusional or anything but I had a blog, had various different ways to kind of grow my audience and was on track to do that And I found that as a person I was changing and that I lost the ability to decide how I could be vulnerable and I actually did not want to be vulnerable about kind of the ways in which I was beginning to think about the world and felt honestly unsafe to share some of those things with the audience that I had built. So how do you be transparent about your process and be vulnerable essentially about who you are as an artist without, you know, opening yourself up to harm?
Or maybe you just do and you’re some kind of super courageous person that I am not.
Austin Kleon: No. I’m not courageous. I’m cowardly. That’s very important to know about me. I am very cautious and cowardly. So I hear what you’re saying. The one thing that I think the mistake of show your work is this idea that was all about authenticity and all about transparency and putting a webcam up in your studio and being vulnerable twenty four seven. I actually thought of it more as I mean, I have a real marketing part of me. You know, I’m driven by opposites. I I I find that the tension I I think the tension in the creative life, you know, we’re in a culture right now.
It’s like, oh, tension bad. Like, oh, man. I don’t wanna be tense. Like, oh, you gotta, like, loosen up. But I find that tension is this very important thing for creative work is that in the way I describe it to people is like a guitar string.
Guitar string is is slung between two opposites, two poles. And if you don’t ratchet up the tension on a guitar string, if you would loosen the tension totally, it just buzzes and there’s no music, just makes noise. If you ratchet it too tight, it snaps. And and so it is with our spirit. Our spirit needs just the right tension.
There needs to be just the right tension and work to create energy, you need to be able to, like, tap into that tension for the music to happen. But for me, that tension is that marketing, wanting the work out in the world but wanting to do really good work and be the art the the artist in the market. Right? Yeah. But to go back to your initial question, my thing is that you control what you share.
You are in control of what you share. When you stick a webcam up in your studio, that will shut you down because you’re being observed. So my feeling was always the tension is to try to proceed as if you’re not going to share things and then to later pick up these little bits and pieces and say, oh, here are things that I can share. Right? And I do think that in some ways, it’s worthwhile to, like, you’ll notice that, like, I don’t actually share stuff while I’m working on a book.
You know, I I I’m too in the headspace of it’s too raw. It’s too I’m too vulnerable. I can’t share things, you know, from a book. But what I can do is do, like, a piece about, here’s what’s helping me write this week, you know, and talk about, I don’t know, writing books or something. You know what I mean?
Like, there’s always and and one of the ways that I tell people, so what I so my great hustle is is that I have this newsletter that I do every week on Friday that that people that in some ways is kind of what I’m known for. You know, I’m known for the books, and then the newsletter is kind of the thing that people really interact with and has a really big audience.
Marcus Goodyear: This is the freebie newsletter on Substack.
Austin Kleon: The freebie newsletter that’s been going on way before Substack and will be going on way after Substack. Yeah. Just so I can say that out loud because I I like Substack as a platform right now, but I don’t trust it. And they know that and I’ve told them that, you know?
But to me, the newsletter is something that I’ve been doing for about a dozen years now. And it’s a list of 10 things I think are worth sharing every Friday. Yeah. And, the great thing that I do in that newsletter is every week I give you this stuff that I think is really interesting. And then when I have something to sell to you, it goes right up at the top of the list. So every week I’m building a relationship with this audience. I’m giving them great things. I’m trying to be as generous as I can. I’m trying to point out as much as I can.
I’m trying to like give people as much good stuff. And then the minute I have something to sell them, that’s the good stuff. Here’s what I made for you. You can buy it here. So that is my great work of like showing my work is that every Friday you get this kind of peek at what’s making me excited what’s going into my work.
And that’s part of the process, and I’m showing you that stuff while I’m busy cooking up whatever I got going, you know, on my own stuff. And then when it’s time to blow out my own stuff, you’re gonna hear about it because I’ve got your email. And so that’s the dance between, you know, that’s the dance between the gift and the that’s the gift. And that and and and the layers of the newsletter have changed now because we have a paid tier now.
I say we as if it’s someone other than me and May, my wife, doing this thing. But, the idea with the paid tier was, okay. You wanna get a little bit closer to the process. You want to hear from me twice a week. You wanna get writing that might end up in a book someday, but you want to get it right now when it’s raw and new.
Okay, well, pay $50 a year and you get that connection and you’re able to talk back at me in the comments and stuff. So, you know, it’s kind of that, you know, Marcus, I really hear what you’re saying because it it is, you know, in some ways, I’m selling access to me. You know? I mean, there is a sense that the the Tuesday tier and by the way, I am blessed with the most I have the kindest, nicest audience. This has always been true.
The comment section of the paid newsletter is like standing in line at one of my book signings. Just the nicest people. I don’t know what the one thing I’ll say about the work is a lot of jerks don’t show up. Know, jerks just don’t show up. And so, but I do think that these days, if you have a kind of walled garden, you know, everybody, you know, because people are like, well, why don’t you let us comment if we are not paying people?
And I’m like, well, one of the things that happens when you pay into something and you buy into it is that you really want to keep it nice. You have a sense of ownership over it.
Marcus Goodyear: Yes.
Austin Kleon: Right? And so the comment section in our Tuesday newsletter and even in the Friday because only paid people are able to comment on the Friday newsletter. So sometimes the Friday newsletter is just as interesting. But again, this is why our world is so strange. The market, again, if we think about that gift economy and the market economy, putting up a market paywall saying, no, you gotta pay to get in here, It actually creates a space in which gift things can enter.
Marcus Goodyear: That’s right. I really resist product in my work maybe because I have product in my day to day work and so my creative work, try to keep, pure sounds like a judgment on the work I do to get paid, which I’m very grateful for the H. Bett Foundation. I love working here. But when I write poetry or when I do plays, I have no more favorite art form than live theater, which is you can’t replace live theater with AI, I don’t think. Don’t think that that’s actually possible.
Austin Kleon: No.
Marcus Goodyear: But with poetry, when I pulled back from a very early and clumsy attempt to build a brand, I decided to just write poetry for friends, for myself and never share and never submit. And it’s been ten years since I started doing that and I’m beginning to wonder at some point do I come out of that but it’s it’s very freeing.
Austin Kleon: Well, you’re in great company. I mean, Emily Dickenson.
Marcus Goodyear: Well, yeah, I don’t wanna be delusional, but I mean And she’s great.
Austin Kleon: But pretty awesome. The I the thing I love about Emily Dickinson though is like she’s writing poems on the back of envelopes that people have sent her. And she’s including poems and, like, letters she’s sending. There’s a get talk about the gift. I mean, like, one of the things I write about and keep going is that if you’re feeling burnt out, you know, one of the things I hate about this culture is that the minute you show any proficiency for anything, well, you know, oh, this fried chicken. Oh, you can fry chicken. You know what? What comes next? You could have a food trailer.
Camille Hall-Ortega: You could have it. Yeah. You should sell.
Austin Kleon: It’s the first thing we say. It’s the it’s the major compliment we give to talk about. You should take that thing that you love to do that I’m loving right now. You should ruin it by making it your job. That’s exactly what you should do.
Right? And so make money. You know?
Marcus Goodyear: Yes. Stay an amateur.
Austin Kleon: Yeah. I mean, that’s one of the first things I tell people is like, if you have turned your hobby into your job, which a lot of the people that I’ve talked to have, guess what? You gotta get a new hobby. And a lot of artists, you know, that some whatever they’re doing that they were loving, you know, and when you turn it into your job, you need something else that’s outside of the market. You need something that’s pure gift.
Camille Hall-Ortega: A lot of what you’re saying, it really sounds like there’s a lot of freedom and just kind of letting go in your art. Just allowing yourself not to have to put so many expectations on where is this going? What am I gonna do with this? Can I make money off of this? Am I gonna eat off of this?
And, of course, as you’ve discussed, it doesn’t always feel like that’s something that’s easy to do for a number of reasons. But there’s a beauty in this sort of letting go of those expectations and of those kind of multilayered need from the art.
Austin Kleon: Yeah, I mean, I think that our you know, a hero of mine is Brian Eno, and one of the tensions that he talks about culturally is this idea of control and surrender. Mhmm. An artist is someone who has control and surrender in a unique tension because you’re sort of in control and you’re sort of not. Like you’re giving yourself over to an experience and surrender is a big part of it. You know, it’s again, it’s a matter of spirit, not of technique necessarily.
And the other thing that I wrote about this week is if you don’t show up for yourself and your own creative work, you can’t show up for the world. A lot of the creative people I know there’s a lady I know named Beth Pickens, who’s a who’s a art coach. And she said this thing that just, like, drilled right to my core. She said, artists and creative people are people artists in particular. She talked because her whole thing is artists.
Artists are people who are driven to make creative work. And when they don’t make it, their quality of life suffers. They suffer. And so it’s a lot of what I do right now is just trying to be the thing I wanna see last. And so when you’re kind of, like, in the currents of the moment, like with the AI stuff, I’m trying to keep an open mind about it.
I’m trying to, you know, just, okay, well, we’ll see what happens. But there’s also a deep part of me that believes so much in the struggle of the brain wants to do something, but the hand wants to do something else. And the hand turns out to be smarter than the brain. And the hand tells the brain something that the brain didn’t know about itself. And it’s this two way street of, you know, idea and execution and brain and hand and spirit and body, you know?
Marcus Goodyear: Yes.
Austin Kleon: And I know that that’s where the magic of the stuff comes out. And I just feel really bad for a generation that might not experience that. But then I think to myself, as long as you do it and you celebrate it, you’re helping it continue.
Camille Hall-Ortega: That’s right.
Marcus Goodyear: The next generation is still gonna have bodies.
Austin Kleon: Yeah. Right? They’re still gonna have hands. It’s gonna fall apart on you and it’s gonna, you know, you’re gonna have to wrestle with it. I think I’m very interested in, I mean, that’s a whole different subject, but I collect stories of people whose physical shortcomings or differences led to some signature work.
So I think of, I’m the parent of two people who stutter. And there are a lot of people who stutter turn into writers because they wanna write the way they wish they could talk. But there’s even more interesting things like that. Then, like, Art Spiegelman, the cartoonist has amblyopia, I think is how you say it, but he has one functioning eye. Oh, When you have one functioning eye, it flattens the world.
You don’t have depth perception. Well, in a certain con if you’re playing baseball, that’s not gonna you’re not gonna hit much. Like, you’re not gonna catch many balls when you don’t have depth perception. But if you wanna be a cartoonist, it’s like a superpower because the world’s flat for you. Right?
Tommy Iommi, the guitar player for Black Sabbath, lost two fingers in a two fingertips in an industrial accent. He fitted his fingers with these leather caps, and he detuned his guitar so that he could, you know, move the strings better. Well, Black Sabbath, a lot of the sound of that metal band comes from those detuned sludgy guitars. So Mhmm. Regina Spector, songwriter, wanted to be a classical pianist.
They said, your hands are too small. You’re never going to be a classical pianist. Okay, well, I’ll write pop songs then or, you know, I’ll be a songwriter. So the things that make us different are in the right context or superpowers. You know, Saul Steinberg said the thing that we respond to in any work of art is the struggle of the artist against his or her limitations.
Marcus Goodyear: I love that. I love that. It gives me hope because creativity is is finding a way. Yeah. It’s, you know, it’s it’s gonna come through.
Yep.
Camille Hall-Ortega: Awesome.
Austin, this has been amazing.
Yes. Thank you so much. I had fun.
We did too.
Marcus Goodyear: We did too.
Austin Kleon: So nice to talk to you.
Camille Hall-Ortega: Too much of what you do is encourage artists, and so thank you for all of the encouragement today. I am inspired. Truly.
Austin Kleon: Yes. Oh, I’m glad.
Marcus Goodyear: Yes. Thank you so much. The Echoes podcast is written and produced by Camille Hall-Ortega, Rob Stennett, and me, Marcus Goodyear. It’s edited by Rob Stennett and Kim Stone. Our executive producers are Patton Dodd and David Rogers.
Special thanks to our guest today, Austin Kleon. I don’t know if he subscribes to Echoes Magazine or not, but he should, and you can too because it’s free. Go to echosmagazine.org to subscribe. You’ll receive a beautiful print magazine each quarter, and, did we mention that it’s free? You can find a link in our show notes.
The Echoes Podcast and Echoes Magazine are both productions brought to you by the H. E. Butt Foundation.
Camille Hall-Ortega: Learn more about our vision and mission at hebfdn.org.
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